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I was wondering what different peoples views were on sex before marriage are, and what the Bible has to say about it. Is it ok if you two as a couple make the vows of marriage together and mean it without actually going through the ceremony? This could be for a number of reasons should it be age, money, or other life circumstances? Do you have to go before the alter and spend the thousands of dollars on a wedding before you can become intimate with your significant other? Just something that I?ve dealt with and am dealing with in my life and was wondering others opinions on the subject. Also if it is a sin to do so before being married must you stop and wait?

The very fact that this discussion exists at all is significant, in my opinion. The argument is basically either for the tradition (abstaining from sex before marriage) or against that tradition.

Allow me to digress for a moment. 1 Corinthians 11:14-15 reads this way: “Does not the very nature of things teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a disgrace to him, but that if a woman has long hair, it is her glory? For long hair is given to her as a covering.”

It seems to me that Paul here is pointing to a cultural norm of the times—a cultural norm that does not exist in our (North American) culture. There are plenty of men that have long hair without disgrace (I, for one) and plenty of women with short hair, again, without disgrace.

If I lived in Mexico, I would probably cut my hair and stop drinking alcohol. Not because I believe those things are sins in themselves, but because culturally, they are unacceptable for a Christian, and thus a sin.

So, what does “culture is not optional” mean for this conversation? I think it’s clear what the cultural norm was, and maybe still is. Are we bound to this?

I don’t think we are bound to that, but I do think it’s important to understand what you are talking about randomtrout (odd handle that). I realize that we are a long way from that, but I have the feeling that our conservative church circles often create rules that should be seen as guidelines and not scripture. This “sex before marriage” question is one example of that.
I agree with what Sean is saying. The church seems to be asserting that marriage needs to be a wedding. The mentality of “A church wedding is best, but if you have to go before a justice of the peace, we suppose that will suffice (begrudgingly).” I don’t think that’s biblical. It’s tradition and it’s cultural, but if it’s not biblical should we be tied to it as closely as we are? Again, these are the types of issues and attitudes that I think the church should be wary of. In my opinion sex is marriage whether there’s a wedding or not. “Sex before marriage” seems to me an impossibility both in the etymology of the phrase and the physical act.

Hey Norb, been a long time. Still working hard at kohler and i’ll try and stop by and say hi before i go on my mission tell you where i’m going and stuff.

Anyway to the topic. As a Mormon, and as sex before marriage and marriage in general pertains to me here goes:

marriage: We proclaim marriage is between man and a women and is ordained of God and that the family is central to the Creator’s plan for the eternal destiny of his children.
We believe marriage to be the most sacred institution on this earth and to be eternal, that is lasting beyond death. In order for this to occur, sacred ordinences and covenants must be made, which would require the church. So both church and God would be required.

Immorality: Chastity is sexual purity, a condition that “pleasing unto God” (from book of mormon). To be chaste, you must be morally clean in your thoughts, words, and actions So sexual relations before you are legally married is a no no. Physical intimacy between husband and wife is beautiful and sacred. It is ordained of God for the creation of children and for the expression of love within marriage. So “anything goes behind the bedroom door” is flawed and incorrect. There are some things that do not express love or appreciation for your spouse.

that’s my two cents

Thanks for your input Steve. Glad to hear you’re still alive and kicking on this website. I like the perspective you bring. About that perspective. I agree with your second paragraph. Biblically, there is more said about sexual purity (mostly through the what not to do: ie. sexual immorality). Unfortunately, the Bible does not go into many specifics about sex between a man and a woman. The most sexually graphic book is a celebration of love not a list of “thou shalt nots”.
The church being foundational to begin a marriage is debatable. If we see the church as God’s body, then ideally both members entering a marriage should be well established in the body of the believers. If we see the church as a group of believers in front of which a ceremony needs to take place, I disagree. And that may be a difference between viewing the Bible as the only scripture and viewing the Book of Mormon as a scriptural supplement, or final revelation, to the Bible.
One last disclaimer (I promise): I think waiting to have sex until going through an official ceremony is a good idea. Having that many people there to witness your vows and your covenant is a wonderful thing (it was for my wife and I), but I don’t think it’s necessary to be in the bounds of a healthy Christian marriage.

I am a new member/contributor to Catapult but have been reading with interest your discussion on this particular issue. I have a couple of articles on my website (http://troy.mountainview-church.com) that you might find to be of interest and help.

One of the articles deals with the issue of sexual boundaries. It deals with all kinds of things like premarital sex, adultery, oral sex, pornography, prostitution and “Open Marriage”. The teaching on these issues is based on Song of Songs in the Bible, but layers in two other important ways of looking at the issue through “Common Sense” and “The Law of Grace.” You can find this article at: http://troy.mountainview-church.com/archives/teachings/sexual_boundaries_a/index.html

The other article featured there is actually a writing that was featured on Catapult some time ago (titled “Living in Sin” under the byline “Name Withheld”). The reason for anonymity was to protect any parties concerned, but now that time has passed that is not an issue. This article deals specifically with premarital sex and has some different points to offer, by way of “common sense”, than the “sexual boundaries” article has to offer. Again, you might find it to be of help in some way. You can find the article on my website at: http://troy.mountainview-church.com/archives/teachings/premarital_sex_an_i/index.html

Should you happen to read either of those articles, I would love to hear back from you as to your thoughts. You could either do that through posting a reply on my website or you could do so through the Catapult forum, of course.

Please forgive me for the “intrusion” in the discussion. I do realize all of you don’t know me from “Adam” and might think it strange that I would post to this, but just thought you might find this to be of help or interest.

Cheers,
Troy

Never an intrusion Troy. Thank you for joining the conversation. This is why the discussion board was established. I look forward to looking at some of your articles and commenting on them. Welcome to *cino!

In Gen Chapter 2: 24-25, we read

24. For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his [b:848b48a262]wife[/b:848b48a262], and they will become one flesh. 25. The man and his [b:848b48a262]wife [/b:848b48a262]were both naked, and they felt no shame.

This may be the very first verse in Bible talking about human sexuality.

Here the word, neither “woman” nor “girl” but “wife” is used to address Eve.

I think that SEXUALITY is created in us to resemble the triunity and their fellowship.
Yet, its practice is limited only within the framework of husband and wife, the family.

My point privatejet is that a biblical definition of “wife” is hard to come by. My understanding is that one doesn’t need a church or any other wedding to be married. The verb married means two things joining together. This can be a marriage of butter and garlic to make shrimp scampi, or two people having sex, regardless of gender. Once they join together they are married. They are connected as one flesh. Whether or not this is a good or a bad thing is a matter of debate.
I personally think that taking the authority of marriage away from the church view of “no sex until you have a wedding” might be a dangerous one giving young adults a false sense of freedom to have sex before they are ready, but I don’t like the idea of the church view falsely supposing a Biblical background. Of course it may be supported. Zechariah may have a verse about not having sex before being wedded before a congregation officiated by an ordained minister, but I don’t know that. Unless I or somebody else can find that I’m going to stick to my guns that marriage and wedding are not biblically tied together the way the church, by and large, thinks they are.
And troycady, I’m sorry I haven’t responded to you yet. I’ll get to your site and your posts in another few days…hopefully.

I agree with you, Norbert.
I also think that no ceremonial due diligence for marriage
is explicitly specified in Bible.

But, the point that was trying to make was
that God’s intention seems to be rather clear
from the verses.
(I agree that I may be carrying it away too far at this point.)

God wants us to take our sexuality seriously and
abstain from “becoming one”(may include,
in my opinion, heavy skinship)
until a man and woman can publically address each other
as “husband and wife”.

I agree that there could be many exceptional circumstances.
(like in deserted island or places where wedding,
namely a public acknowledgement, is impossible.)

Yet, we must see those cases as “[b:599ebee066]exceptions[/b:599ebee066]”
just like Jesus’ violation of Jewish law of sabbath.

I just discovered your discussion today and the topic is something that I’ve been thinking alot about since I have been engaged for several months. My finace and I have tried to be prayerful about this and obedient to what God has communicated through the scriptures, but we haven’t landed on any easy answers. I write to share my thinking and my questions.

By the grace of God, divorce is not an option in either of our thinking, but it’s hard to ignore in a culture when it is so prevelant. I think that it was C.S. Lewis who said that divorce is like getting your legs cut off, and I think that part of the reason is that the committment that was made with vows, bodies and the intertwining of lives is now broken. One flesh is torn, and it’s a big deal.

So… since we all know that committments are sometimes broken, committment of lives, bodies and vows seems to exist in increasing intensity with increasingly harsh consequences. This is why I think that God puts guard dogs around our sexuality, becuase it’s just so hard on us to have “body intimacy” without the other kinds. BUT, when all three of those things are increasing (i.e. I am making a “life committment” by not renewing my lease, and we are making public declarations (“vow-like” in some ways) by sending out wedding invitations), it seems to be that we are becoming husband and wife already. With this comes increased physical committment… we do plan to save sex for our wedding night as a final celebration/consumation… but in the PROCESS of becoming husband and wife, we are also becoming increasingly physically intertwined. If our engagement would be broken, the physical break would be horribly painful… but so would having to retract our wedding invites, make new plans for next year, etc.

All of this to say that it seems that part of the way we honor God is by increasing intimacy in different areas at the same speed. This sort of thinking doesn’t clarify “lines to not cross” very much, but it’s what I have to offer. Hopefully I haven’t worked out an elaborate rationalization so that I can kiss my fiance more!