catapult magazine

OK, So the Red Sox and Cubs aren’t playing each other in the World Series, so there’s one less condition for the end of the world, but thought I’d see what everyone thinks regarding the end of the world and Israel/Palestine/Arab World.

So if we ignore the Scofield Reference Bible and the dispensational system that it invented, what do you think the Bible outlines as to Israel’s place in the world? Doesn’t the Bible talk about Abraham’s descendants (through Isaac and Ishmael) being at odds with each other? Is peace a realistic possiblity?

This is a great question and one that I’ve been pondering much the last several months because we’ve been doing a biblestudy on Daniel and Revelation. Since history finds its deepest origin in the Jewish people, the Jewish situation will most certainly play an important role in the end of history (and it already has).

The State of Israel in Palestine offers the world a wonderful opportunity to bear witness to the world-ending power of God—but we will not see any great, God-glorifying things coming out of Israel as long as “The State of Israel” is the people’s god in the Middle East.

I think the Bible tells us about as much about the US as it does about Israel. It is true that “salvation is of the Jews.” For that reason modern day Jews can take special pride in their ancestry, especially since Jesus was part of their family. Also, Paul says that the gospel is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, the Jew first and also for the Greek. In this sense, Jews may be said to a priority.

None of this bears on modern day Israel. In the Biblical sense it is incredibly sad to see Jews trying to reclaim their former glory. They don’t understand that God has dismantled the theocracy, and more sadly, they don’t believe in the Christ. On account of the latter, both Christ and Paul cried over the Jewish people. Jesus cries, “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, but you were not willing!”

The situation in Israel and in the Arab world has nothing whatsoever to do with the end of the world. God can come at any moment, as he has told us—like a thief in the night. No one will expect it. God is not waiting on any development in the world, except what he has ordained, and what he has ordained he saw to fit to keep to himself.

Why doesn’t the current situation speak to the end of the world? It sounds like you’re too easily discounting the significance of the theme of “the end of the world” in the New Testament. Aren’t we constant witnesses to the end times, even now?

Anton, there is a lot in your post that I disagree with and that I think is problematic. I think it is right to reject dispensationalist theology that has a formula for what still needs to happen before Christ can return, but I think you are also rejecting the clear Biblical teachings regarding what God has said he has yet to do in the world. I will try to research this a little more in the next couple days and suggest a few areas where the Bible speaks to this issue.

Does it matter if the world is ending or not? Should the seemingly hopeless situation in the Middle East cause Christians to give up? Does the fact that the Bible says there will be emnity between Ishmael and Jacob mean that there is no point in working for peace?

I’m pretty sure that Jesus would not stand for that kind of defeatism. I think he’d encourage Jews to stop building their security wall and stop new settlements, and he’d prompt Palestinians to start acting more like Ghandi and Martin Luther King. Jesus stood against cynicism. And I think giving up the work of being peacemakers and giving up the work of defending the weak against the strong represents pure Christian cynicism.

I’m not sure who was saying that the end of the world means we should give up, because I agree completely with what dan’s saying. Christ’s message is not one of defeatism, but of victory, and because of that victory, people like Ghandi and Martin Luther King Jr. (and I would add Bishop Desmond Tutu) are empowered by the world-ending spirit of Christ to put an end to the old ways of doing things. I was saying that the fact that Israel still clings to the old way of state sovereignty guarantees that the nation will not find the New way. Israel is living according to the law of the old world instead of the new one that has overcome the old world. According to The Book of Revelation, Acts and all of the New Testament, we’re living in the last days and the old world is passing away because of the power of Christ’s resurrection, and this is the comforting knowledge we need to be active servants in these latter days.

I think a strong case can be made from scripture that there will be a revival (return to God) among the Jews before Christ comes again.

anton, do you think the “first to the jew, then to the gentile” could be chronological, instead of a modern day priority list? (ie. first to the jew (OT) then also to the gentile (NT))

speaking to a segment of the larger population (not necessarily anyone in this discussion) I’m not sure it’s defeatism on this issue, it’s more like “i don’t really care in the first place,” in regard to peace in the middle east. whatever israel does is okay, because they’re God’s special tribe.

i find it amazing how little condemnation you hear for israeli atrocities. (especially among some christians)