catapult magazine

It is helpful in that it’s good to hear what other think. I still think the whole trinitiy/God and Jesus is something that I find ultimately confusing and strange.
I have considered the Messainic community. I am still deciding on whether it’s for me or not. IT will be interesting to try it out.
As for Pittsburgh, my family is there, but I am a college student going to school outside of PA. I know fo one Messianic congregation here and I am still contemplating the whole thing. But that you for the direction to the one in Pittsburgh. I am not sure yet if I will ever be happy with what one church will be able to provide me, but my assumption is that one day I will settle in a place that has at least something to offer. God will show me a place to go, right? Or wait, or do I mean Jesus? Good question.

I’ve been in and out of churches for a very long time; never staying in one place for very long. So, I’ve had a fair amount of experiences at differenet churches. Maybe it’s just me, but I guess this is one thing that is really starting to bug me…so here goes I guess:

Though Jesus is obviously the reason why we are Christians and not something else, I am beginning to wonder if churches are becomming too Jesus-Centered. Now, don’t shoot me down right away for that statement…just think about it.

While Jesus is an important part of our religion, sometimes I ask the question “Is God missing here?” Many churches that I have been to, while reading maybe one scripture from the Old Testament, tend to leave a lot of talk about God out of the church service. I feel like we’ve become so centered on Jesus’ life and death (as it is obviously very important) that we have not forgotten, but maybe lost sight of the fact that GOD sent His son to us. I feel like God isn’t getting the credit He deserves. Maybe I’m wrong, but I feel like God is missing in many churches.

Does anyone else have this feeling….ever? Maybe I’m alone in this one, but something inside tells me that I’m not.

An interesting observation, P-06. I tend to notice the absence of the Spirit, but you are right that God often gets too little attention as well. I feel as though I grew up having no clue about the character of the Spirit within the Trinity. In fact, God almost got more play than Jesus, manifested in an almost vicious commitment by some to read the 10 commandments every Sunday. If we don’t have balance among the three persons in our worship, we are missing out on important qualities of God.

There’s a book called [i:5f50a9768c]Fingerprints of God[/i:5f50a9768c] by Robert Farrar-Capon that begins with a very humorous but illuminating scene: God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are sitting around before the creation of the world drinking whiskey, smoking cigars and talking about how this whole thing is going to go down. When and how will grace through Christ be revealed? The death and resurrection have been suggested, but the Spirit has some other very interesting ideas (including a ubiquitous, ever-replenished box of chocolates for each household) for representing the forgiveness in Christ that is present to everyone from the very beginning. The Spirit is mainly concerned that humans, in their linear thinking, will misinterpret the life, death and resurrection of Christ and create an idol of their particular situation in “A.D.” or “C.E.” time. We know how this debate turned out…and we also may be experiencing some of the “repercussions.” I haven’t gotten very far into this book yet, but it might be an interesting read if you’d like to know more about God as a unique member of the Trinity—it’s about various images (good and not-so-good) we use as metaphors for God.

Another interesting idea that I’ve come across is that the period of history before Christ was “the era of God,” the period from Christ’s resurrection through about 2000 was “the era of the Son,” and we are now in “the era of the Spirit.” This isn’t meant literally, of course, but it’s a reflection of how the spirit of the age relates to different members of the Trinity at different times.

Practically, have you ever considered worshipping at a synagogue alongside your worship at a church?

Yes I have considered worshipping in other places, such as a Temple. But just as I would not take communion at a Catholic church because I am not Catholic, I don’t think I would feel welcome at a Temple as a Christian to take part in their relgious endeavors either. The two are very opposite comparisons, I know. But I have been thinking a lot lately about the Old Testament and the Jewish faith. I feel as though they may have something we don’t.

And just to touch on one of your statements: The idea of the Trinity is the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, I know. But does this mean they are all the same thing/person?And if so, does that mean that God was a man?

You’ll have to excuse me…though I have been a “Christian” since middle school, I am still so young in my understanding of my faith and where I am in my relationship with my faith. There is so much I still do not know.

Though the priest at a Catholic church cannot refuse communion to anyone who comes to the table, you are not, according to church law, supposed to take communion. However, I think you would find a much different atmosphere at a synagogue, particularly a Reform synagogue. I’ve worshipped twice with Jewish congregations and found them very welcoming. It was refreshing to worship God with people of such an ancient religion that is the foundation of Christianity.

Also, you may look into Messianic Judaism, from which you may be able to learn more about God in a faith community that is rooted in the Jewish tradition and accepts Jesus as Messiah. Assuming you are in Pittsburgh, there is a congregation comprised of both Jews and non-Jews near you.

The members of the Trinity, in my understanding, are both three and one and Jesus is both fully God and fully human—we may not be able to wrap our minds around these concepts, but that is the mystery of divine paradox. I don’t know if you’re a reader and no books on this topic are coming to mind right now. But I can ask some folks. Does anyone else have any recommendations?

Here is a related portion of an interview we posted as an article in one of our September issues. This is from Larry Kamphausen:

[b:1e743121f1]How is your theology of the Trinity and of the Eucharist interwoven with your experiences in the Community of the Holy Trinity and in the Church of Jesus Christ, Reconciler?[/b:1e743121f1]

We chose the name Community of the Holy Trinity out of a belief that common life and community must be grounded in the life of the divine community of the Trinity. The trinity—Father, Son and Holy Spirit—is the true life of all community worthy of the name. In the Trinity we find both perfect relation between persons and a unity that does not obliterate difference. These are characteristics necessary for community and especially intentional community. Intentional community does not work well if one attempts to guard one?s individuality above all else. It also doesn?t work well if the reality of the uniqueness of persons is not recognized and celebrated. A focus on individuality denies that as persons we are who we are in relation to other persons, just as it is impossible to understand and know the person of the Father without understanding the Father?s relation to the Son, and the Father?s relation to the Spirit. So, too, we cannot know and understand the Son with out recognizing that the Son is in part the Son?s relationship to the Father and the Spirit, and so too with the Spirit (which is why the dispute over the addition of the Filioque into the Nicene creed by the West is no idle theological dispute but touches on how we understand the persons of the Trinity). A community or a community leadership that seeks to treat all the same without recognition of the uniqueness of persons attempts to attain unity through the denial of difference. This is itself a denial of personhood as our personhood in relation is based on difference and otherness from other persons. A proper understanding of the Trinity shows us the perfect balance between unity and difference in a differentiated unity….

Church of Jesus Christ, Reconciler is unashamedly Trinitarian. This does not mean that all who come always know what that means or that we always exemplify the life of the Trinity but that our goal is in many ways the same as that of the Community of the Holy Trinity. Also it is the unity with difference of the Trinity that is the basis of hope for any and all ecumenical endeavors, for it is God who will bring about the unity we seek and we know that this God is both three and one, that in the very person we worship is the example of the unity of the Church of Christ.

This is a bit theological, but Kamphausen shows how the principle of the Trinity (three distinctly unique persons in one person) can be lived out practically in our daily lives. Our communities can be unified in vision and purpose, but also celebrate and encourage the unique qualities of their individual members.

I’m rambling—is any of this useful to you? You are welcome to ask even the most basic questions here. I’m glad you found this board.

No doubt the Spirit will guide you in a direction, but you’ll also have to make a choice. My husband and I recently took membership classes at the church we’ve been attending for nearly three years now. I wouldn’t say the decision was made on the basis of “happiness,” but on the fact that we found a community of people we can travel through life with. Choosing a church is like choosing a life partner—it’s a commitment to relationship with all of the messiness and disappointment and joy and vulnerability that relationship entails.

I wouldn’t say it’s necessary for everyone to be affiliated with only one congregation, but I would say that becoming deeply invested in a relationship with a faith community should be a goal, rather than escaping to the next congregation when one is no longer “happy” in the old one. The relationship metaphor again…although things can legitimately change over time and the faith community you’re in now may not be the one you need in ten years.

It seems perfectly natural that a Christian church should focus on Christ. But I don’t see how a focus on Christ therefore necessarily goes against a focus on God. Maybe the problem is that the churches you’ve been attending don’t feel like a family gathering. If they did, then the Father would be right there at the table with the Son— and the Spirit would clearly reveal our brother and sisterhood with our first sibling, Christ. Though the Trinity is a helpful doctrine, it’s only a doctrine. Though my logical center might be satisfied by a reasonable articulation of this mysterious relationship, my whole body needs a sense of this satisfaction too. When I feel like I’m among family in a church, the Trinity itself (not the doctrine) makes sense. Unfortunately, I have been to many Christian churches where I feel I’d be more at home in a Green Day concert, and then I get very sad, even quite angry. And no matter what correct words I hear spoken at the church about God or Christ or the Spirit, they ring false somehow.

I might humbly propose that maybe it is not that Christ is preached too often, but that He is not preached with sufficient depth and diversity. I travel for work and find myself attending church services whenever and wherever possible, regardless of denomination. And I’ll sadly agree that, across the board (though certainly with exceptions), American churches fail miserably to preach the Christ “in whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.” (Col. 2:3) Too many of the sermons that I hear are simple moralisms, particularly those drawn from Old Testament narratives. Too often we are told to “be brave like Joshua” or “be courageous like Esther” instead of finding Christ working in the lives of OT saints. We are given moral sermons, moral admonitions and moral examples instead of getting to know, to truly savor, the Christ of Scripture. Christ is the central figure of Scripture, Genesis to Malachi, Matthew to Revelation. He says so Himself, “‘How foolish you are, and how slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken! Did not the Christ have to suffer these things and then enter his glory?’ And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning himself.” (Lk. 24:25-27)

We don’t need moralisms, and the church needs to stop preaching Christ as merely an escape hatch from hell or the guy who’s going to fix all of our financial woes and our self-esteem issues. We need to hear about the Christ who is supreme over all things, who is God, the Creator, come in human flesh for the purpose of displaying Himself as God the Redeemer. He is so holy that no amount of morality matches his standard and yet so loving as to suffer, to pay our penalty, at the expense of His own life. We need to hear about His patience, justice, wrath, mercy, wisdom, holiness, righteousness, love, knowledge and truth and we need to know Him intimately, as He has revealed Himself to be in Scripture. (And the Trinity is absolutely essential to knowing Him as He is. Please don’t neglect it simply because it is difficult to understand. The richest things in theology and life are found in tension, in struggle.)

Anyway, I’d recommend two books to you. First, Edmund Clowney’s The Unfolding Mystery: Finding Christ in the Old Testament. It’s fantastic. Buy it, read it and give a copy to whoever preaches in your church. It’ll change the way anyone reads the Old Testament. Second, go old school. Read Augustine’s Trinity. It’s worth it. It’s been said that one could spoon the Pacific Ocean onto dry land before comprehending the doctrine of the Trinity. But what would you expect? “‘For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways,’ declares the LORD. ‘As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.’” (Is. 55:8-9)

If you’re not interested in book buying, you could check these links out instead:
The Trinity (http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/topic/trinity.html)

Christ in the Old Testament (http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/topic/OTredemptive.html)

To expand on what you’re saying, I think the image of the gentle Jesus cuddling the cute little lamb and whispering sweet nothings into our ear is grossly unbiblical. Much of the imagery of Christ is quite violent—his eyes are ablaze and he has come to cut people into two pieces with his double-edged sword-tongue. Now that’s a “Lord”! That’s also remarkably reminiscent of the KISS (rock band) aesthetic.

I’m excited about this strand. When God the Father and the Spirit are left out of the picture, we get this anemic gospel that robs us of the comfort and assurance of knowing and feeling the fullness of God’s love for us. There are a few doctrines coming out the Reformation that are often presented in the rarified airs of academia but are really intended to benefit God’s people, ordinary people living broken, ordinary lives.

Economic Trinity. God the Father plans redemption, the Son accomplishes it, and the Spirit applies it. The fullness of the Godhead is working in our behalf, each Person doing his part. We wandering pilgrims will make it home at last!

Election. God the Father has given a people to the Christ, who purchased them back from the dead, and the Spirit gives those people new hearts, enabling them to put down their weapons of rebellion and to cry out to their Heavenly Father. Oftentimes when Christians focus exclusively on Christ, they begin to think salvation is a team effort, and they are more and more convinced they aren’t doing their part. They lack Paul’s confidence, that what God began in them he will also bring to completion.

Covenant of Redemption, or the so-called “pactum salutis.” In John 17 Jesus prays his high priestly prayer. He says he has done the work God gave him to do and asks for a people. This request is in accordance with an agreement or covenant that Jesus had with the Father (As Jesus says elsewhere, The kingdom God has covenanted to me, I now covenant to you…). From all eternity God had promised his Son a people, with the understanding that he would have to give his Son up for them (John 3:16) and that Jesus would have to die on the cross for them and be raised by the Spirit in power. So Jesus asks God to keep his promise and gather a people, protect them and guide them home. There is also the understanding that the Spirit will come and transform hearts and lives of those people, ensuring that not one will be taken from Christ’s hands. As Christ says in John 14, he goes away to the cross so that the Helper will come.

How awesome that we are caught up in the sweep of Triune God’s redeeming work! If only this understanding were preached from pulpits more often.

Sorry if all that seems a bit long and heady. It’s so hard to communicate the emotional tones of these things. Let me try another way. When my mom passed away, our family was focused on Christ in somewhat of a superficial way. We knew Jesus loved us and died on the cross for our sins, but how could this happen? When she died, the bottom dropped out from beneath us. There didn’t seem to be any comfort on the way down. We felt estranged from our Savior and Lord. These doctrines of the Reformation seemed to catuch us at just the right time. We had thought that God was sovereign but not that sovereign! We lacked a deep understanding of God’s providence, that he would turn to our spiritual good whatever he brought us in this sad world. The providence of God the Father needed to fit with the redemption purchased by Christ in a richer way; we needed comfort only the Spirit could work in us. We needed our Triune God.