catapult magazine

This topic unites religion, politics, etc….

you were not taught the marvelous things these 4 (and others) DID in beating the massive Soviet Bear and his minions— (not listed in any particular order)

FEEL CHEATED![/b:98c34b9284]

Research various sites on the Internet yourself—to hear the marvelous accounts. Maybe a few current accounts attempt to rewrite that time, to explain it away?
but it was an incredible event (some may dare say…miracle???)

Margaret Thatcher, Reagan, Lech Walesa, Karol Wojtyla (the late Pope).

Just one of many links http://www.rrstar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050406/OPINION04/504060302/1022/OPINION

Search the Internet under the other names above or use the phrase fall of European Communism…and peruse the marvelous history of the fall of Eastern Communism, which, I hear, is already being explained away by some historians…

:D :D :D :D :D

PS While Gary Cooper, the lone sheriff standing up against evil alone in the movie High Noon…was used as the biggest Solidarity icon in the “graphic arts war” fought in Poland,
….fortunately the “Gary Cooper” (the Pope, Walesa, the Poles, other oppressed Eastern Europeans…) in this story was aided by the powerful world figures
Reagan & Thatcher.

Earlier, some protestors, most notably Nobel Prize winning Solzhehitsyn, who was [b:98c34b9284]revered[/b:98c34b9284] in the US before he ticked off some
with his unpopular Harvard 1978 commencement speech (also online)
had
(in the 1970’s) revealed the skull and bones and pus-filled decay of the mass murdering concentration camps of the Stalinist AND post stalinist Soviet communism… so maybe the world did (in the 80’s early 90’s) did not lull itself into thinking that current Communism was nothing less than an “evil empire”.[u:98c34b9284]

but you research various sites if you want to know the truth. Especially if your history book downplayed this marvelous event. Read for yourself…various sources!!![/u:98c34b9284]

Quote from April 6, 05 Rockford Star Cal Thomas column (which has link in first article in this topic):
They were an unlikely political “trinity” – Ronald Reagan, the president of the United States who came from the Disciples of Christ Church; Margaret Thatcher, whose background was lower-class Methodist; and Karol Wojtyla, the Roman Catholic priest from Krakow, Poland. Together, they did something no one thought possible: They contributed to the collapse of communism, a political pestilence of the 20th century. "
(Many also would add the catholic Lech Walesa to the trio above…See the rest of this article & much other Internet research.)
NOTE on Thatcher—-She acknowedges a debt to Christian Writer CS Lewis.

vanlee I’m not sure why you’re picking these four people? If we’re talking about courageous political figures who had a role in bringing down communism, wouldn’t Gorbachev top the list? If it weren’t for his humane restraint and unwillingness to bring in the Soviet military to crush the protesters there would have been a bloodbath in 1989 as there had been in 1956 Hungary and 1968 Czechoslovakia. (and as there was in 1988 China)

Gorbachev gets credit definitely for his nonviolent RESPONSE to the nations going for democracy. Went against his past ideological training for sure!

But many (tho NOT my friend’s daughter’s history textbook writer which basically only mentions the responder Gorbachev) still give the first honors to the INITIATORS of the democracy movement. Some names are known—-some not.

Is a fun topic to google..

Gorbachev introducted reforms (perestroika and glastnost) that encouraged the transition to freedom of speech, freedom of the press, and slow movement toward private enterprise. Without those reforms the people would not have been on the street in the first place.

But its silly to argue about who is the biggest hero. My point is that you can’t say it’s just one or four heros, because in doing so you leave out lots of morphin power ranger heroes who did their part to kick those evil pinkies in their atheist schnouzers. Seriously though, I wanted to bring some complexity into this discussion because if you talk to people who live in eastern europe you will find that lots of them liked life better under the old system when nobody went hungry (I’m excluding stalin’s attrocities, etc), when everybody had a job and a place to live. Not everything about socialism was terrible.

some older evangelicals i know in hungary miss the old days when Christians werent’ so materialistic, and everybody stuck together. Now it’s everybody for themselves (capitalism) which is not exactly the way Jesus intended his followers to live.

Of course, the socialistic left system of Communism took care of its people…more or less. I heard a man address this problem when he counseled some of the older people (living in the up-for-grabs times of the early to mid 1990’s in Eastern Europe). He said you can’t just move to the US & expect to be taken care of. They were not being persecuted—-just wanted to move. But they had no pensions, etc.

Another note—-I met others or heard of others I knew or from sound Christian organizations (including my former college prof) who realized that there was a big MORALITY and power vacuum. Big Brother (the communists) the state “gods” so to speak were not there to restrain persons…& to provide the only officially recognized “ethics” which (simplified) means the state was god. Better obey or else.
Thus, some in Russia asked Peter Deyneka (american of Russian Descent) some in Campus Life, and others to send teachers of Christian Ethics. They realized they could not run a country—-well…without some ethics, morality that went above the state…

(Of course, the Russian mafia developed as it grabbed power in the power vacuum, too. Educated officials, and their minions, relaized they could sell stolen goods, the local young women, drugs, whatever. After all, if there is no muscular state, (they already being taught there was no god) who cares how & where they make $$$)

Remember…Gorbachev was faced with internal bankruptcy (the Reagan Star Wars project…one of its agendas was to pressure the inwardly struggling Soviet Union into another expensive arms race).

Also, both Reagan & Thatcher were publicly determined to stand up to the Soviets, etc. (Read Thatcher’s book on Statecraft to understand her mind. . I have read much of it so far. She earned the name “Iron Lady” from the Ex Soviets.)

And one of the reasons the whole world NOTICES who the next Pope is, is because they have such a large following worldwide & thus such power. The Pope, I think shortly after becoming elected in Pope, declared words to the effect that he was an international figure & not subject to the Polish (read Polish Communist) authorities.

Thus, as the eyes of the world watched these 3 public figures (& of course others less visible) so the Communists were further intimidated by those in Poland—-the ship workers led by Walesa…and the intellectuals, graphic artists, etc. who started publicly acting out for freedoms.

Do I think Gorbachev would have done what he did without the 1,000,000 watt spotlight then put on Eastern Europe? NO. He graciously went along…

ironic as the first Star Wars movies played just before this time…the real Star Wars battle (yes Reagan’s military plan named after the SW movie) was being fought out almost totally without blood.

And the small town grocer’s daughter, the young former actor from the oppressed country, the former Midwest town boy, and another young ship builder / and new union creator from the same oppressed country
[b:0a31a5dcff]…happened to be the key leaders at the time.[/b:0a31a5dcff]

“some older evangelicals i know in hungary miss the old days when Christians werent’ so materialistic, and everybody stuck together. Now it’s everybody for themselves (capitalism) which is not exactly the way Jesus intended his followers to live” (quote from above)

Of course, a free society means there are more chances to mess up.

There’s more chances for greed (for those not restrained by an ethical core—-or more powerfully a supernaturally based ethical system ).

if you put the heavy suit of socialism on a country[/b:72808da3d0](left or right—-they’re not much different ultimately in their oppressive techniques) [b:72808da3d0]…who regulates the leaders?[/b:72808da3d0] There are some local capitalists (and capitalist-founded foundations) helping to build up one of the poorest towns in the US. Hopkins Park (in the top 10 nationwide). Capitalism is not evil unless the person cheats, oppresses others…Some capitalists make their community better. It might be good to study & recommend on how to build up & foster the care & growth of more such benefical, ethical capitalists who remember that to give to the poor is to lend to the Lord, and that true religion includes not only honorable living, but to speak for those who can’t speak for themselves & to help the widow & orphan…or their current equivalents…on the bottom of the food chain.

(Eli Lilly funded a study about how longterm involvement in a religious youth group positively affects youth’s behavior…why not a study about how & where beneficial capitalists arise???)