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discussion

Total Depravity

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asybes
Feb 23 2003
04:23 pm

Hi. Does anyone have any thoughts on this? I’m just curious because I got in a disscussion with a hardcore Lutheran about it, and I’m wondering what other people think about it.

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bridget
Feb 24 2003
02:37 pm

I’ll take a stab at this.

Yes, I have thoughts on it. I think it explains so much of why the world is the way it is.

What are your thoughts on it?

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JasonBuursma
Feb 24 2003
04:00 pm

Does anyone know Bible verses that relate to this?

I know there’s Roman’s 3: No one is righteous, no not one…
and the passages that talk about our best works being like filthy rags.

At first when I was taught about total depravity I was like “OK, then what’s the point of trying to do good if I can’t”. The bottom line is that we are completely dependent on God through the Holy Spirit to do anything good. This is certainly true from my experience.

So I think any teaching of our sinful nature is incomplete without explaining that God is glorified and made perfect (I forget the verse…) through our weaknesses.

There are some possible biblical arguments against total depravity, but I’ll leave those to someone else.

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Langston
Feb 24 2003
05:16 pm

A good way to look for the idea of total depravity in scripture is to look at verses that speak of human corruption. For example, Titus1:15—To the pure, all things are pure, but to those who are corrupted and do not believe, nothing is pure. In fact, both their minds and consciences are corrupted." The idea of total depravity is simply that human beings, by their very nature, are corrupted by sin and corrupted in their totality. As a human, my sex drive is affected, by reasoning process is affected, my use of language is affected, my sense of priorities, my relationships with family and friends, my politics, my ego, etc., etc. etc. The point of total depravity is not so much that a human being cannot do a random act of goodness. By the grace of God (common grace, that is), he or she can. But like a computer program that is corrupted, we do not work the way we are supposed to and we are incapable ourselves of changing that. I know that some Christians find the idea of total depravity depressing, but I think they are missing the point. As Paul makes clear, the absolute miracle of grace is that God loved us while we were yet sinners. The more we appreciate how broken and hard to love we are, the more we stand in awe of a God who loves us and who loves us so much that he does not count his own son as to dear a price to pay for our redemption.

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laurencer
Feb 25 2003
03:28 am

what did the hardcore lutheran say about total depravity?

wow. after typing that sentence, i feel like i need a really witty punchline. but i’m just interested in what the lutheran had to say. asybes?

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asybes
Feb 27 2003
05:10 pm

Sorry it took so long to get back to you… But heres what he said. He said that the idea that we are completly bad and evil is incorrect. Why would God create us completly evil to make us go to hell? It makes God seem like a creepy God, instead of the merciful God. He also said that he cant see most people in his life who are totaly evil.

His words not mine. Your honor, I would like a moment for rebuttle.

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laurencer
Feb 28 2003
04:48 am

kirstin and i have been going to a lutheran church since we moved to michigan, so it’s interesting to me that a lutheran might say something like this. granted, i don’t know much about denominational doctrine, but the comment just didn’t seem right to me.

so i looked up some info on the evangelical lutheran church of america’s web site. here’s their take on sin:

“Lutherans believe that all people live in a condition which is the result of misused freedom.? “Sin” describes not so much individual acts of wrongdoing as fractured relationships between the people of creation and God.? Our every attempt to please God falls short of the mark.? By the standard of the Law, of which the Ten Commandments are a classic summary, God expresses his just and loving expectations for creation, and our failure to live up to those expectations reveals only our need for God’s mercy and forgiveness. ”

while they don’t necessarily come out and say, “hey, humans are totally depraved,” they certainly don’t subscribe to the almost secular humanist statement you report.

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JasonBuursma
Mar 03 2003
10:17 am

I’m going back to this because I think there are a lot of fundamental issues involved in the subject.

Romans 12:2 says “do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world but be transformed by the renewing of your mind.”
The implication is that we can be transformed.

So what does total depravity mean? Is it

a) We are totally incapable of ceasing all sin and therefore totally incapable of earning our way to heaven

b) We are totally incapable of doing anything good even after becoming a Christian. It’s just that when you’re a Christian you are forgiven.

c) Our Sinful Nature has taken over our Flesh (mind, will, and emotions) and we are incapable of doing anything pure in our flesh, but by God’s Holy Spirit we can do things to bring him glory

Or is it a combination or neither?
At the root is the question of free will vs. determinism and the question of who we are: Body and Soul or Body, Soul and Spirit- Two parts or Three?

Sorry if this seems esoterically philosophical, but I actually have been struggling with these issues and implications. (They’re not keeping me up at night, but I am thinking about them)