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I just got done having a two hour long conversation with a co-worker about whether Christianity is true or not. I never did very well in my debate classes and I always seem to forget the majority of what I know or all of those pat answers that they give you in Sunday school every time I have conversations like this. He has been researching different religions and says that he cannot make a decision about Christianity because the church is withholding information from him. He feels that the Bible, as we know it today, was put together by sinful men who through selfish motives left out important gospels that could have been included in the Bible. For instance, he says that when the Dead Sea Scrolls were uncovered, a gospel supposedly written by Jesus was uncovered as well. The church is hiding this book however because it teaches that the church is not important and essentially God can be found within us. (Hence the idea that we are made in “the image of God”) He says that the Bible was put together in such a way as to make the church very powerful, as opposed to saying what God wants it to say. Has anyone else heard anything about this? Can anyone give me a quick summary about how we “know” the Bible is inspired?

Also, he feels that everyone worships the same God. Hindus worship the way that they do because that is how God has revealed himself to them. Essentially when it comes down to it, all the important beliefs about God are contained within these other religions. He says that in the Bible when it says that God created man in his own image it uses the plural version of God. I knew this and told him that it refered to the Trinity, but he says that the Trinity did not exist back then – it came later, in the NT. Hasn’t the Trinity always existed? If God created Jesus wouldn’t that make him a creature and not God, or a lesser God. Why don’t I remember what I learned in my Creeds & Confessions class at Dordt? I have heard this kind of belief a lot, but I still don’t have a good way to respond. I always end up falling back on “I just know in my heart that it is true”. Is faith the only tool I have to debate with? Sorry this is so long. I could really use some advice.

The “missing” Gospels come up quite a bit in my neck of the woods. The book you friend is speaking of is most likely the Gospel Of Thomas. Here is a link to one particular translation:
http://www.misericordia.edu/users/davies/thomas/Trans.htm
Understand that in the Council Of Nicea (357 ad) all of the writings of Christ’s days (and post ascension) were mulled over for accuracy in several areas: dates, linguistics, geography, numerology, race, charachter, etc. The Council was looking to establish the true Word of God from all of the gnostic and other deviations of Christendom that had flourished throughout the “missionary” years of the scriptures. Some were calimed heresy. Some were claimed nice “renditions” or “writings” but the Council felt they lacked the inspiration of the Holy Spirit due to inaccuracies found in one of the categories they had spelled out.

The Church is not hiding these books from your friend, it only claims that there were inaccuracies within them they deemed them unacceptable for compiling them into what we now have as the official text of the Bible.

You should be able to find out more about this interesting time in Christian history on the web or at your local bookstore.

sorry to interject with an unrelated comment (i do find this all very interesting and important), but, jen, could you send me an e-mail at kirstinvgr@cultureisnotoptional.com? i’ve been trying to send something to you, but the inter-gizmos keep shooting it back to me as undeliverable. thanks!

I read the Thomas document just now. . .this is I think called one of the gnostic gospels.

Jen, you may find Peter Jones? book ?The Gnostic Empire Strikes Back? very helpful. I?ve known about it for some time and after reading these posts and the Thomas document, I started reading it – he deals with this stuff head on. . .hopefully I?ll finish the book today. I love vacation!!!

Jennifer, you raise some tough questions. Here’s what I can offer. Hope it helps.

Why is the Bible inspired?
1. The Bible claims to be inspired.
a.. OT Scriptues are said to be “God breathed.” 2 Tim 3:16
b. Peter puts Paul’s writing on the level of OT Scriptures,
implying that they are also God-breathed.. 2 Peter 3:15-16
c. Paul commends the Thessalonians for receiving the word
he and others preached, not as the word of men, but as it
is, the very word of God.
2. Calvin argued that in the end the Spirit must convince a person that the Bible is the very word of God. Some aren’t willing to read the Bible and ask God beforehand to reveal them through it. If they are willing, it might be best to ask a person to pray that God will reveal himself through Scripture and then read Scripture. John is a good place to direct them. Then, if they are interested (if the Spirit has begun to work in them), they ought to hear the Word preached. God has established the preaching of the gospel as his ordinary means of converting people.
3. This means that in the end, we don’t “know” that the Bible is inspired. It cannot be proven the way some people demand proof. But the question is whether they demand that level of proof for everything that is really important. If they are honest with themselves, they will recognize that they believe a lot of things with less proof than we have for believing the Bible.
4. What ‘proof’ am I referring to? Primarily the resurrection. It is sometimes useful to ask a person if they would change the way they think about Christianity if they knew Jesus was raised from the dead. Jesus made a lot of claims. He claimed to be the only way. John 14:6. Also, consider that famous passage starting with John 3:16. We seem to read this passage as though Jesus were the most inclusive person you’d be likely to meet. He died for “the world.” But read verse 18. Jesus claims that whoever does not believe in him is already condemned. All those romantic notions of Jesus’ inclusivity are burst. C S Lewis argued that Jesus was either who he said he was, or a lunatic on the level of a poached egg. Some of his assertions are really wacky if he was merely a man and not who he claimed to be. He said he would be raised from the dead on the third day (Luke 9:22). No one is raised from dead, according to the scientific worldview. But Jesus was raised from the dead. And if this outrageous claim of his turned out to be true, how many other of his claims must likewise be true? Jesus promised to give the disciples the Holy Spirit, who lead them into all truth (John 16:13). This promise was fulfilled on Pentecost, and the disciples were led by the Spirit into all truth: they wrote the New Testament.

As for the Trinity in the OT, it is tricky. If your friend is willing to concede that the NT teaches the Trinity accurately, then he must concede that the Trinity existed in the OT. John 1:1 claims that “In the beginning (reference to Gen 1:1) was the Word, and the was with God, and the Word was God.” If we go back to the beginning, recorded in Gen 1:1, we find that God created the heavens and the earth, the Spirit was hovering over the face of the waters, and according to John 1:1 the Word was with God. “All things were made through him.”

Also, many take references to the Angel of the Lord to be references to God the Son. Consider Ex 3:2-4. First, the Angel of the Lord is in the bush, then God speaks out of the bush. The Angel of God seems to be God.

Also, consider Psalm 110:1 and Acts 2:34-36. The language is strong here. First he quotes Ps 110:1, then under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, interprets it: “Let all the house of Israel therefore know for certain that God has made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you crucified.” The point is that Psalm 110 teaches about God the Son.

Thus, the Trinity was taught in the OT. The NT just brings it out with much greater revelation and clarity. Anyway, it wouldn’t make sense if the OT did not teach the Trinity in any sense. Jesus claimed that all the law and prophets (the Scriptures) taught about him (Luke 24:27).

The teaching of the Trinity is central to Christianity. One cannot know God in any important sense without believing the Trinity. Jesus claimed that no one knows the Father (God)except the Son and anyone to whom the Son chooses to reveal him. In order to have saving knowledge of God, one has to believe in Jesus, whom God sent (John 3:18; 6:29).

Sorry if this an overkill. Hope it helps. Sharing and defending the faith can be incredibly difficult! If you’re interesting in sharpening your skills, I recommend two books:

Ravi Zacharias, Jesus Among Other Gods.
Van Til, Defense of the Faith (a tough read, but worth it).
I’ve also heard that Peter Jones’ book is good.

OK Jen, here?s a little more detailed information. The?Gospel of Thomas?was discovered the same year as the Dead Sea Scrolls (1948) but were not in the same place. The Dead Sea Scrolls were discovered at Qumran, while some Egyptian peasants discovered some Gnostic writings at Nag Hammadi. The ?Gospel of Thomas?was included.

The Dead Sea Scrolls date back to the time of Christ and validate the Old Testament and I believe some accounts of Christ. The Nag Hammadi documents are from the Fourth Century and are not really a huge surprise that they existed – we?ve known for centuries that the Early church had a fight with gnosticism.

Thanks Dave for resaerching some of the more firm details of this.

Stigmata any one?

It should be added for accuracy that many of the books found during the late 40’s around the Dead Sea area had been known of and reviewed previously. Most of what the Dead Sea Scrolls offered us were earlier transcripts that confirmed not only the authenticity of the Scriptures but also the integrity of those who meticulously hand copied these documents with little to no errors.

A bit off topic but for those interested, you gotta check out this website:

http://www.geocities.com/gospelofstjudas/

That had to be the most rediculous thing I have ever read. Calvin Klein, Gucci and Nazi’s all in an ancient text. I did like the part where the alcoholic christ called that guy a dumb shit. Now I feel better about my own use of vulgarity…

Thanks everyone. I appreciate your help and I will be looking into your book suggestions – I already started the “Jesus Among Other Gods” and am finding it very interesting stuff.

To clarify something…the gospel that my friend thinks the church is hiding was actually written by Jesus. He says that it is different than the gospel of Thomas (although that did make for some interesting reading). I have never heard of Jesus writing anything before – I probably just have to do some more research.