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thread was started in response to Would Jesus Mosh? How ?Christian? is Christian Metal?, published by Ransom Fellowship. -*cino staff[/i:ee16491db5]

Before Heavy Metal came into existence, Rock was shunned by Christian leaders as "Un-Christian" and music for the uncouth alcoholics and drug addicts. Now, these leaders move this shun to Heavy Metal and now Rock is not as bad as it used to be. So, what is next?

These leaders seem rather content to keep shunning Heavy Metal as being the most evil musical genre ever created. Christian authors that agree with them like Mr.David J. Seel, Jr. (Mr. Seel) claim that, "we (would) find Jesus at a heavy metal concert … but his face would be strewn with tears."

My question for them is: What happen to your shunning of Rock?. What about Rap and Hip-Hop? Their secular bands tend to have as sexually explicit language as secular Heavy Metal bands plus they usually have scantily clad women dancing in their videos, which are not seen as much or at all in Heavy Metal music videos. P.O.D. (Mr. Seel labels them in a part of his article as a band with hard rock and rap, and later as heavy metal in his condemnation of Christian Heavy Metal. In reality, P.O.D. has no Heavy Metal roots in any of their music and Nu Metal is the only one that could be stretched to include them), Toby Mac, Pillar, and other popular Christian rap, hip-hop, and rock bands receive extreme praise from Christian leaders and are even used by Christian ministries(e.g., a ministry down in California that uses rap to reach out to people in their community).

So if rap/hip-hop is being used to reach people that like that genre, what so wrong about Christian Heavy Metal bands using their music to reach people who like Heavy Metal? Apparently, moshing that is present and only present at some Heavy Metal concerts makes it more violent than Rock, Rap, and Hip-Hop, which also have moshing at their concerts. Also, it seems to them that heavy music with singing guitars is worse than music with unskilled chord strumming (e.g., what is present in Rock, and if there is even guitar playing in rap and hip-hop the same as Rock).

"There is no such thing as heavenly music or secular music, the one (thing) that (does) (exist is) heavenly lyrics and secular lyrics." To see some Christian Heavy Metal bands’ lyrics, go to http://www.metalforjesus.org/lyrics.htm.

Long Live Heavy Metal!

Is the point here that heavy metal is better than rock or hip hop? My understanding of heavy metal is that it is doing a different thing than rock or hip hop. Sometimes people misunderstand heavy metal because they don’t understand the fantasy world that’s going on underneath it—which is entirely a valid way of expressing Christianity or whatever.

I don’t like alot of Christian heavy metal though because often the lyrics don’t fit with the feeling in the music. I’ve heard Christian heavy metal bands screaming "God is love" in a way that does not sound at all like love. Even if they mean to express the power of God’s love, it sounds like they’re just taking the heavy metal music and sprinkling Christian lyrics on it thinking this redeems it. Do they really believe there’s more power in words than in music? If so, they’re in the wrong profession if they consider themselves musicians. Musicians know that music says so much more than words and just attaching Bible passages to music is not going to change the meaning of the music.

I am really excited about the possibility of Christian metal music, but I just haven’t heard alot of good examples of it.

My point was to show that the article saying Heavy Metal was "un-Christian" was wrong and flawed. Mr.Seel never used an example of a Christian Heavy Metal band in his argument against it. He used P.O.D. a lot, which is not a Christian Heavy Metal Band, and Korn, which is a secular Nu Metal band.

Christian Heavy Metal bands are not the only ones that scream their message of God to their audiences; e.g., 12 Stones. One of the purposes of Christian Heavy Metal is to reach the lost who listen to this style of music, and to entertain Christians who also like it. I also find that Christian Heavy Metal bands that plug in difficult guitar soloing into their songs are not only sticking to what Heavy Metal is and is suppose to be, but also are testifying through that by showing their love for God through giving their all in their music, which Jesus told us to do in Mark 12:30 to "Love the Lord our God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength." This is what I have against the bands that Christian leaders pat on the back a lot for their good "effort" and "performance", which I find them lacking in either because while they exclaim God’s message through their lyrics(words), they fail to show it in their actions (performance). For it has been said, "Actions speak louder than words."

Rock, Hip-hop, and Rap was taken by Christian musical artists too, who just threw Christian lyrics into their songs also. So, Christian Heavy Metal bands are not the only ones who have done this.

LLHM!!!

P.S. Screaming/yelilng is showing that Christian Heavy Metal bands want everyone to hear their message of/from God, and is another way of their showing of their love of God via giving their all.

In middle school and into high school I LOVED heavy metal. It’s about all I listened to. I’m not sure why I loved it. It’s angry music. I don’t think I was an angry person, but this aggressive music acheived a sort of cartharsis. A release. I loved that release. I still occassionally listen to aggressive music and enjoy it because of the same effect.

When I listened to the lyrics more closely, I was suprised to learn that the themes of the songs were often far from angry. I remember learning that one Metallica song was actually an environmentalist song. What I thought was "see your mother put to death," an idea that bothered me, was actually "see OUR mother put to death," referring to mother earth. I laughed. "You sound so tough, but you’re just a big softy." Then listening to Megadeath I found the same to be true. It was an anti-gun, anti-hunting song. The contrast between the style and the content was laughable.

So Christians aren’t the only ones who don’t always match the style of their music and the content of their lyrics very well. I think part of the problem is that people want to link their music to something bigger (perhaps even to give it some "redemptive" value, however the person defines redemption), and they have pre-conceived notions about what those bigger, redemptive themes ought to be. So Metallica and Megadeath sing aggressively about environmentalism and gun-control, while Christians heavy metal shouts in violent tones about the love of Jesus. This style/content mismatch was laughable, which is perhaps why I always hated Christian heavy metal.

Why don’t Christians find broader redemptive themes to work with. Why not, instead of the love of Christ, sing about the apocalypse. I love the Bible’s apocalyptic literature. It doesn’t try to make an argument (This is WHY you so desperately need Christ and his loving, saving work). It shouts, as it were, "Enough of the arguments. This is the way its going to be. The great and terrible Day of the Lord is coming, in which an army like horses will trample evildoers. In terror people will call for the mountains to fall upon them. Behold! The Lord roars from Zion. The wicked will depart into fiery furnaces, but upon the godly a sun of righteousness will dawn." It’s redemption from an entirely different perspective. The Lord’s patience and forbearance will run out, and he will come against all the wicked and destroy them. No one will be able to stand. In the meantime Jesus is meek and mild, patient until all his people are gathered to himself. But on the last day Jesus will not be mild but great and terrible. Behold the Lamb!

Aren’t these themes more suited to Christian heavy metal?

good suggestions anton. heavy metal would also be perfect for addressing some old testament themes like "kill all the canaanites, and i do mean ALL"… "drown egyptians drown!" …and "elijah go kick some baal-priest ass." just some ideas.

Do I detect just a tiny hint of sarcasm, Dan?

I too originally listened to Heavy Metal for the same reason, though the music I was listened to I later found out was actually Hard Rock, Rapcore, and Nu Metal (e.g., 12 Stones, Linkin Park, etc.). When my brother pointed this out to me and showed me bands like Metallica, I started to realized there was much more to Heavy Metal than I had been told or preceived. It is particularly more artistic than other musical genre in its hard guitar solos. So, I started to listen to Heavy Metal more and more for the solos, and even Christian bands that fit this criteria like Stryper, Rob Rock, As I Lay Dying, Extol, etc.

Screaming actually is more prevalent in Nu Metal bands like Korn. Yea, some Christian Heavy Metal bands like Extol and As I Lay Dying tend to have a lot screaming. Though, there are Christian Heavy Metal bands that don’t have screaming in their songs like Stryper and Rob Rock plus there are Christian bands that are not Heavy Metal like 12 Stones and Kutless that having screaming in their song.

Heavy Metal includes many sub-genres like Power Metal, Progressive Metal, Thrash Metal, Death Metal (sub-genre of this Melodic Death Metal; e.g., In Flames), Classical Metal (e.g., Yngwie Malmsteem), etc. Some of these sub-genres like Power and Progressive Metal have bands that have singers that sing high rather than the lower growl of most of the other sub-genres.

As most people know, the Metallica band members were alcoholics like James Hetfield, who eventually went throught rehab for alcoholism. So, like The Beatles who were known to be doing drugs when they wrote some of their songs ("I am the walrus…"), you can’t take Metallica too seriously in their songs. For instance, I originally thought Master of Puppets was just a song about death and killing. Then, I paid more attention to the song and realized it was about a drunkard and the voices of the demons of alcoholism in his head ("Laughing at my cries…"(drunkard), "Crushing your dreams…..now I rule you too…"(demon)). Also bands like Britney Spears and similar aritists sing about sexually explicit messages, so I’d rather hear an environmentalistic song than how some rapper is doing his girlfriend.

Your whole argument seems to be an obsession over your personal dislike for the style of some Heavy Metal bands and then you use it as a generalization that you apply to all Heavy Metal bands.

Note to all, the purpose of the blog is not to "convert" you to Heavy Metal but as counter-argument to the article "Would Jesus Mosh? How ?Christian? is Christian Metal" by David J. Seel, Jr.

LLHM!!!

P.S. Nu Metal is somewhat of an invalid name for this musical sub-genre in that it’s more of a new muscial genre that mixes mostly Hard Rock and Rap with just a significant amount of Heavy Metal, so that they can claim to be a Heavy Metal sub-genre.

Actually, following up on Grant’s comment, my point was simply that Christian metal mismatches content and style. At least this was the case with the Christian metal I used to try to listen to. Since then, I haven’t listen to much metal, so you’re right, I am over-generalizing.

I was also trying to lay out a way forward for Christian metal, for music that wouldn’t mismatch content and style. So I wondered if there was a part of the Christian message that was more dark and aggressive to fit metal’s style. I thought of some of the minor prophets. Consider Joel 2: "Blow a trumpet in Zion; sound an alarm on my holy mountain! Let all of the inhabitants of the land tremble, for the day of the Lord is coming; it is near, a day of darkness and gloom, a day of clouds and thick darkness. Like blackness there is spread upon the mountains a great and powerful people…Their appearance is like the appearance of horses, and like war horses they run." There’s power in this prophetic message!

It’s just a idea I had, not something I had worked out. Dan, of course, caught me up short. If Christians could use metal with apocalyptic content, they have to use it well…very carefully. Otherwise, yes, it could come off celebratory and cruel, as though the cruelty was what was being celebrating (this was Dan’s point, I take it). But that was not what I had in mind, and it is not the point of apocalyptic literature. Rather it invites us to look unflinchingly into the face of a dark and terrible day and WAKE UP while there’s still time. As the Lord says in Joel 2:12, "Yet even now, return to me with all your heart…Return to the Lord your God, for he is gracious and merciful, slow to anger and abounding in steadfast love, and he relents over disaster." So proclaiming the day of judgment, and writing music about it, does have a redemptive purpose. In fact, though its message is dark, its aim is ultimately loving.

Christian metal could take apocalyptic literature and run with it. I wanted to think positively and constructively. But if it ends up celebrating violence and aggression, as Dan seems to warn, then it will become just another worthless perversion.

I understood and agree with your vision for heavy Christian music, Anton. In fact, the prophets have been a main influence on our own stuff. The apocalyptic spirit seems to be missing in most Christian music which thinks sentimentality and meekness are the only feelings ordained by God. I understand Dan’s point and it should be responded to—I remember laurencer gave a great response to the criticism of Jews being too violent and genocidal at one time and the fact that God is not happy with this in the Old Testament; maybe he should pull it out at some juncture (maybe not in this conversation, though). I think Dan jumped to conclusions when he heard the term apocalypse. That word is owned by fundamentalists who want to see physical destruction come upon the wicked (which doesn’t include them, of course). The original meaning of apocalypse is revelation and it suggests that the old world is disappearing and a new one is coming in. Apocalyptic literature in the Bible was meant to be a comfort to people who were suffering—many of them were the ones being destroyed, were the victims of genocide or cultural annihilation (in Rome and in Babylon). And the prophecies were often brought against the Jews, not other nations.

So, back to the music portion of this discussion. Why are technically proficient guitar solos a sign of good music? Is rap music good just because the rapper fits alot of words into the song very skilfully?

this is only tangentially on topic (if that’s possible) but i thought you might find this tidbit as funny as i did:

http://www.theonion.com/content/node/45799