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America the good

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dan
Apr 05 2003
10:15 am

I have some questions for people who’ve grown up in America (I’m American but have spent most of my life outside the country). I’m going go against my instincts and will assume that the current adminstration has been taking ‘the right’ approach in foreign policy during the last year. Along with that goes the assumption that the values of the United States are superior to the values of France, Germany, Russia, Arabs, etc — the prime purpose of current policy seems to be the export of values. So here are my questions:

What are these values that are supposedly being exported?
Even if the current American regime has the best interests of Americans (and the world?) in mind, how can we be sure that future administrations will? As it turns out, past administrations have had less than admirable motives, so why do we have faith that our country is right, when much of the world doubts this (mrsanniep, if you honestly think that American hegemony is welcomed around the world, we can make that a separate thread)?
Shouldn’t American power have checks and balances in the world as it has always had in the past? If they could have forseen it, wouldn’t the founding fathers have worried about the dangers of unchecked American power?
Finally, the crux of the matter: Are American values more good than bad? Seems to me like a mixed bag. And I’m not talking about a comparison to the values of Hussein’s Iraq. But what about the values of Brazil, South Africa, Japan, and Germany? I know there are great things about American values, but what makes American values so great overall that we’re excited to export them?

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SamIam
May 03 2003
04:41 pm

I didn’t mean to kill the conversation. Sorry.

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Adam
May 04 2003
06:11 pm

Grant: Okay, I can go with the theory that there is an overarching ideology behind America’s stance here. Where does avarice play into it? You can’t claim oil had nothing to do with it, or you’d be ignoring way too many “coincidences.” Or there’s the Bechtel contract thing. I don’t think people here are claiming America is a complete angel. But if there is a unifying ideology under which the hawks gather, how does the president see the fact that we’ve ignored gross violations of human rights elsewhere? That we’re using more nukes than anyone? That we’ve apparently left Afghanistan to stew in their own juices?

I can understand why the U.S. might not like the U.N. But I feel very much like there’s a lot of greed going on here. Does the President believe that we’re merely “protecting our own interests” when we do these things? Does he even know the full extent of what the U.S. is really doing abroad?

I’m not willing to do the typical and fear-driven stereotype that I’ve been hearing a lot lately, which says that Bush is a purely evil man. But there’s either a lot more to his ideology than I can presently comprehend, or somehow pride and greed have found a way to thrive alongside this ideology.

My question is how.

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bridget
May 04 2003
06:49 pm

Sorry to keep harping on this point, but when we’re making these arguments, can we please remember that this is ONLY foreign policy, one part of America, not all of what America is? Thanks.

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JasonBuursma
May 04 2003
09:53 pm

Sam (I don’t know if that’s your real name),

I was with you until

Text It seems to me that while what terrorists do is wrong, to them terrorism is the only way to get across their messages, to shout a message in our closed ears.
And your point about how both of our values are the best.

I agree that we should always be cautious of our motives. We know that our hearts “are deceitful above all else.” Even good deeds can be done with impure motives and there’s nothing wrong with using our brains and analyzing what’s happening in the world and wondering about the motives of our leaders.

Your first point would have more credibility if these terrorists were likable Robin Hood types: stealing from the US to give to their impoverished peoples. Instead they seem to take from their own people to fund their missions of destruction against the US.
I disagree with the second point, also. I don’t automatically support everything the US does. The US’s philosophy has often blended doing what’s right with doing what’s best for us. For all the evils in the US, the US still stands for freedom, education and is known all over the world as a land of opportunity.

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JasonBuursma
May 04 2003
10:08 pm

Again, I’m not saying everything the US does is perfect, but I have a knee-jerk reaction to any kind of relativistic statements.

I don’t understand very much about politics or even foreign cultures. I do know that this world doesn’t make any sense outside of a spiritual context.

If I were to look at the big picture in the world I’d see the US as a nation with religious freedom and many Christians- a nation God has blessed. I would see the “10/40” window as a stronghold of the Enemy. If I were Satan, I’d use my home camp to damage God’s Army.
The church in the West is a sleeping giant in many senses. It is comfortable, easy, luke warm. If I were God, I’d want to restore my bride to me. I’d want a passionate bride that’s excited to follow me and wasn’t so enraptured with the things of the world.
I think in our lifetime we will see more and more events that are unsettling, that take us out of our comfort zone. I think that God may bring about events that cut through the gray area and make it more obvious who’s on what side. Without the Holy Spirit it would be frightfully confusing, but with the Holy Spirit we have discernment about these matters.

Feel free to strongly disagree with me. If anyone has any scripture to back me up or refute me I’d love to hear it.

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BBC
May 05 2003
02:51 am

Seems to me that living in a sinful world is all about the grey area. I don’t think things will become black and white until Jesus returns and the kingdom is fully restored.

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laryn
May 05 2003
04:09 am

Jason—
I agree with you regarding relativism—but I am much more hesitant to lift Western culture up on a pedestal and consider America (or even the “church in the West”) as the bride of Christ. I’ll leave that title for the church universal. Trying to ramp up the contrast so that everything is stark black and white is dangerous (and do you really think that “God brought about” September 11?). It seems to me an argument that could have been used during the crusades: at least we are zealous and standing up for God against the infidels. Things aren’t always black and white like we would prefer: September 11th was evil. What about killing a similar number of innocent Iraqi civilians, wounding more of them, and destroying countless more of their buildings? (And before you jump on me for equating September 11 with “collateral damage”—I’m not equating them, I’m just asking how we could possibly consider the latter to be stark white “good” without even a hint of grey, because I sure can’t). I tend to think that more often than not, God’s kingdom will advance without the help of swords (or bunker busters).

I’ll also agree that God would want a “passionate bride” but I’d also remind you that he’s ready to spit out the lukewarm (see Revelation).

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laryn
May 05 2003
04:11 am

For the record, I was referring in part to American foreign policy (though not exclusively). I think American policy and culture in general is a shade of grey—some good some bad.

How’s that Bridget?

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SamIam
May 05 2003
02:38 pm

Yes, my real name is Sam, actually it’s Samuel, but everybody calls me Sam.

After re-reading and re-evaluating my post I think I need to clarify the statements you had trouble with Jason. First of all I think that both statements defiantly border on some kind of relativism. The second was not worded as best as it could have been.

I don’t mean that we can both have differing values that are equally true. Since both sets of values are corrupted by sin and are not all-good or all-bad we cannot simply impose our values on others because of a majority of people in America say they’re Christians. Though America may be considered a Christian nation we in many ways are very un-Christian. I worry about what I see happening to many nations who have been westernizing, these nations seem to get all of our bad traits and loose many of their good traits in trade.

I have always taken relativism as a mixed bag. On one hand I see it as a way of trivializing all beliefs and denying that there is actual truth. But on the other hand I see a limited sort of relativism as a good way of empathizing with other cultures. By at least accepting their values as worth something and not writing them off right away we have a chance to see the good in them. I guess that I don’t think relativism is right or good but I see good things that come from thinking in a slightly relativistic mindset.

Relativism has made the difference between always blindly supporting a war effort against an “axis of evil” to trying to understand their views and why they have them before we forcibly change them. It’s the difference between seeing terrorists as evil and unjustified or as misguided men made in the image of God.

I guess another reason I have such a problem completely vilifying terrorists is because I see our American forefathers as not far off from terrorists, in their day at least. Did the colonials have just cause to start a war and cede from Britain? Did they feel oppressed by a corrupt world power? They didn?t get heard until they preformed terrorist acts and riots. Is the current situation similar?