catapult magazine

In general, I am against war as a problem solving method. Specifically, I am against the current war because there seems to be even less justification for it than any I can think of that the United States has been involved in (except maybe Reagan?s ?war? against Grenada); because of the Bush Administration?s less-than-sincere attempts at diplomacy; because of the Administration?s use of words that make the war effort look like it is God-sanctioned; and because of the shameless ?spin? that the Administration has put on the information they use to justify our aggression. I will continue to be against war – and I think that there are going to be plenty (or one nearly-perpetual one) for me to be against. So be it – a sad state of affairs, likely to get much worse because of the handling of the current situation.

But what really puzzles and concerns me is not that the Administration chose to manufacture this particular war, but that the main supporters of the war are (if you believe the polls) people who identify themselves as ?Christian.? Can somebody help me out with this one? When I read the Gospels (the part of the Bible that tells us what Christianity is all about), I can?t find any scripture that encourages, sanctions, or justifies war. Instead, I see: the one who hasn?t sinned can cast the first stone; blessed are the peace makers; pray for those who despitefully use you; let your light show shine before men that they will see your good works, and thereby glorify your father in heaven; etc., etc., etc. Am I missing something?

Back during the Cold War, a famous radio evangelist Carl MacIntyre became more famous with his Rush Limbaugh-type pronouncement, ?Kill a Commie for Christ.? Is that was this is all about?

Religion for Thinkers:
http://www.netcom.com/~symbios/relig.html

I probably should pause and think before I respond to mwooten, but I guess I won’t. “Its’ difficult and dangerous” to consider the words of Jesus “when speaking of war and politics”? Are these outside the realm of Jesus’ concerns or authority? All we have of Jesus are his recorded words, and the Holy Spirit to help us interpret them. It isn’t as if what he said was in the realm of great mystery; in fact, many times he spoke specifically to CLARIFY Old Testament understanding of what God wants. If we don’t need Jesus in our war and politics, I wonder what we do need him for?

Also, you say “we agree there are laws and consequences that need to be upheld if we are to live together in peace.” Very true, but what does that mean? It’s like the old discussion topic, what do you do if you find someone attempting to rape your wife? You try to stop him, certainly. But does “stop” mean you kill him, or do you stop him by lesser means, if possible? Or, to open another knotty topic, are the Christian “consequences” of murder capital punishment, or lifetime incarceration without possibility of parole? What part of life is Caesar’s, and what part God’s? Maybe war is a Christian “last resort,” although I’m not hearing anything compelling from any of you on that score. But “last resort” implies there are (many?) other possibilities before you get to that point.

My point is simply that governemnt is in place to attempt to make order out of caos, and to best allow us to live together, and to further our interests.

And so the question remains, what is too much? When does the international community step into a place in which there has been clear and unabashed violations of human rights. And you ask, “why now and not before?” I don’t know.

Just be careful when imploring the words of Jesus in all this. The computer you type on and the education that you have, and the society that allows you to live a very comfortable life has little to do with the words of Jesus. It has to do with power and the protcction of its interests. Its a super structure that has perfected supply and demand and you benefit from it. You live off the fat of the land as much as the rest of us. You most likely drive a car that is filled with gas that is brought to us from the middle east, and you drive it down roads into Portland that were built by people who make less money but work harder than you do…And the shoes you wear, and the clothes, and the food …all the same story, produced at low costs, most around the world, for your enjoyment.

The point is simple, do you really want the words of Jesus? Or is this a new concern in light of the war. Our society would crumble if we turned the other cheek. Our economic well being would shrivel up if we loveed others as much as ourselves…so, be careful what you ask for.

Maybe our society deserves to crumble. Maybe our economic well-being, though I do enjoy living in the middle class, has stolen our focus. Maybe it should go away.
Though the war may throw this into the spotlight, at least on CINO, I don’t see a direct connection ultimately. But I guess I’m willing to play along. Though I do think I/we may be getting away from the main point of good Sandy’s thread. Sorry man.

As a person who loves stark distinctions and dramatic provocations, I really like mwooten’s reminder of the radicality of the rule of Jesus. But as someone who finds a sense of peace in the principles of reformation, I’m not willing to throw it all away before making a good attempt at changing the structures that are already in place.

As Keith was suggesting, living according to the rule of Christ alters our values. So, certainly Christians in the U.S.A might have more money than other people. What can ya do? You could try to give it all away, but you might still have more money than someone making Nike’s in another country. Thank God our goal as Christians is not to be as poor as everyone else, that having as much money as those who are deemed poor by a law of statistical averages is not a spiritual gift.

Christ’s message is that things are valued differently in God’s kingdom. So, if we find ourselves blessed with more money than another person, we don’t find value in that: we take no pride in it—and we certainly don’t use our money against people (in fact, we don’t even think of it as OUR money at all, since God gave it to us in the first place). So, in God’s Kingdom, we’d better ask ourselves questions like: Do we value human life because all human beings are born—by the indifferent hand of Nature—with certain inalienable “rights” as living, rational beings or do we value human life because a concerned God values every hair on the head of His marvelous creatures? (we’d better start asking about God’s concern for the hairs on the backs of animals, too, but you can pretend you didn’t see that on this discussion topic).

Having said that, I am very inspired by Keith’s vision of a Christian community made up of pacifists and soldiers. That vision does seem to leave room, then, for Christian military action, does it not?

Always a good voice in the discussion…thanks grant. I guess that I simply grow tired of the conversation at some point. I don’t know what this is, but most likely its simply my own baggage. One of the things that I have been reacting too though is the bantor on this issue of war. Suddently, we are concerned about justice and love and the words of Jesus but for the majority of our lives we have lived passively as our western society has done nothing less than rape the world in order to futher its own interests. And now, in light of war we raise our hands in protest…but what of the lives that we are so connected with? What of the luxurry that we take for granted? I live in NYC, the center of it all, the place that develops the ideas of capatilism and then exploits them, and sells them and perfects them, and on and on and on….and I don’t know how to be set apart from it all, but mostly, I’m tired of talking about it I’m tired of thinking that there is something different about me because I’m a Christian…because I don’t know if there really is anything that special about me in light of most of these conversations. Most days I’m just a hypocrite but at least I want to be honest in that part of my struggle. But the naivity and bantor is growing old. My hands are dirty, and I could care less most days. This is what troubles me most.

Grant – definitely.