catapult magazine

In two weeks I’m lecturing at my church with the following question: "what will happen to unbelievers in the afterlife?" For some of you I realize this is not a hard and grueling question. Please understand that some of us have unbelieving family, and that it is an agonizing topic.

looking for advice from anyone on how to approach this lecture[/u:064c259301][/b:064c259301], and how to address it to a group of adults in their 30’s to 60’s. We are a mainline church that has some varying opinions on just what exactly hell is. We also will likely have both extreme positions represented in the audience; meaning some will downplay hell to near non-existence while others will take traditional stances of conscience eternal torment in a literal lake of fire.

Has anyone skimmed through, or read the book called "90 Minutes in Heaven"? The author says he was dead for 90 minutes and recounts his experience in heaven. Scientists probably explain this experience as a continuation of the brain waves or a hoax perpetuated b the author. I don’t really know what to think. To answer dan, I believe eternal life is what God promises through Christ, but I don’t really know what it would look like. The book by N.T. Wright, "The Resurrection of the Son of God", traces Jewish thinking on resurrection and eternal life and says that the Jewish people of the Old Testament didn’t think about eternal life the way many Christians do today, they didn’t think our souls go to dwell forever in some place after death. Their idea of soul included the body, so the separation of soul and body was not a good thing.

Resurrection and eternal life are important components in Christian theology because death is the last enemy to be overcome. Resurrection promises victory over this enemy. It also allows believers to be fearless in the face of injustice on this earth. The Greeks developed their tragedies around this one great limitation of death and I think you can feel the response to Greek tragedy in gospel accounts of Christ’s death and resurrection. It is fascinating to read (as N.T. Wright alludes to) Jesus’ last statement of submission to God, "Into your hands I commit my spirit", as a recognition of the human limit of death. Jesus obeyed God throughout his life but had no control over the ministry after death. Just as the Teacher of Ecclesiastes bemoaned the fact that all he worked for would be given to his children and he had no control over how they furthered his work, so Jesus recognizes the need for a higher power that is not limited by death. But because Christ was righteous, he overcame death, or the Father of life "raised him up on the 3rd day". So I understand resurrection to be connected with why Christians should be content with the seeming futility of their work on earth, not as a comfort for those who want to avoid the tortures (or inconvenience) of hell.

We had the lecture and discussion yesterday about hell in my church. Wow, was that ever good! Going into the discussion I didn’t know what to expect of people being that this was a mainline (ELCA) church, and that we don’t usually talk about hell. I presented four people’s take on it: Martin Luther, CS Lewis, Carl Braaten, and Brian McLaren. It was a four views of hell approach. The thing that impressed me the most is that an actual conversation went on about what people [b:fdf111d61a]really[/b:fdf111d61a] believe. I told everyone that I had never been in a church where people could be free to actually grapple with an issue like this, and share concerns or different interpretations of scripture. Most people there wanted to defend the doctrine of hell, but also wanted to maintain an approach to evangelism that wasn’t fear-driven.

There was one 85 (or so) year old guy at the end who came up to me and said, "this was all very stimulating, but don’t forget sola scriptura" I think what he was saying was, it’s great you had your little discussion, but what does God say? I told him that while I believe scripture is God’s word, he has still given me the task of interpreting it.

Does anyone know how to pod cast? I have the whole thing recorded digitally but no where to put it online. It’s very fair to all sides so if anyone would like to host it I’d sure appreciate the gesture.

If you’d like to listen to the discussion, you can do so here:
http://share.cultureisnotoptional.com/audio/taylorgeorge.mp3

It’s certainly worth a listen!

I also now have it in low bit rate mp3 format of 7 megs available through email. send me an email if you want it tfgeorge at gmail dot com

What a good discussion, and I’d like to listen to Taylor’s discussion sometime. For my two cents worth, I think you have to approach the idea of hell from the perspective of God’s glory. The natural tendency is to approach things from the human perspective—because after all we are human, and also, because the modern man has said that man is the measure of all things. So things like hell become a matter of social justice for the betterment of human society. Whatever the explanation for hell, it has to make sense from the perspective of human experience.

The Bible teaches hell from the perspective of God and his glory. Social injustice is not a problem so much because humans are hurt, though that is certainly a huge factor; it is more a problem because God is the creator and it is an offense agaisnt him and the way he wants things to be. He did not create the world so humans could oppress one another. He created it for his own glory, and when (and perhaps only when) people live for God’s glory and not their own, does society become just. I can give up my greed, because I know it’s about God and his way, not my personal welfare.

I believe in hell, and as I understand Scripture, God created it to display his own glory. As the Westminster Confessions puts it, God left some to their prideful and willful rebellious hearts and ordained them to wrath for sin, to the praise of his glorious justice. How hell displays God’s glorious justice cannot be understood by those committed to the glory of humanity. Even for those (imperfectly) committed to God’s glory, it is a bitter pill to swallow and the cause of real heartache. But the real question is not whether it is easily acceptable, but whether it is true.

God "created" hell? Is this anywhere in the Bible?

The reason I ask is because I’m reading Dante’s Inferno right now and he insinuates that hell was established by God before creation. He says this because there had to be a place for the fallen angels to go before human beings had that fateful meeting with the ultimate fallen angel in the garden. I know Dante’s comedy is supposed to be read as an allegory, but this seems like problematic theology, don’t it?

I don’t know if its possible or wise to interject a little humor into a discussion about hell, but here goes nothing… There’s a story told about Calvin. Someone told him he would become a Christian, but he was curious: What was God doing before he created the world? He had to have an answer before he would believe. Calvin replied, "He was creating hell for the curious." I’m not sure the story’s true (probably not), but it’s a funny reply and makes a great point about the dangers of curiosity in the sense of refusing to be satisfied with what God has said.

Anyway, I misspoke when I said he created hell. I don’t think the Bible ever says God created it. However, the Bible does say it is a reality, and if it exists, it would be hard to avoid the conclusion that God created it. Who else would have created it?

What is problematic, saying God created hell, or saying God creating hell prior to "creation" (the earth and universe)? I’m not following you there. By the way, are you enjoying Inferno? I’ve thought about reading it…

I think it makes as much sense that hell could exist without having been created as it makes sense that God exists without having been created.

@anton that is not a story calvin misquotes augustine in the the institutes. augustine says in his confessions something to the effect of it is wrongly said that god created hell for the curious. augustine was talking about curiosity and its place in xnity, he wanted to encourage it – at least he did during the period in which he wrote the confessions. calvin picked up the saying from augustine’s work and misquoted it and then centuries of calvin reading peoples have perpetuated the misquote….